This is a rush transcript from “The Story with Martha MacCallum " October 15, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody, I'm Martha MacCallum in New York and this is "The Story." Of an election that is now 19 days away.
It is October in every way, folks, and both sides are slugging it out.
The Former Vice President ahead and double digits in the polls, meanwhile
the president continues to draw crowds in battleground states, and
Republicans claim that they have added 140,000 new voters to the rolls
through a massive registration effort nationwide.
And now after the president's brief battle with COVID-19 at the beginning
of October, and October surprise for the Biden Campaign, reporting being
done by "The New York Post" puts the spotlight once again on the Biden
Purported emails and photos raise new questions about how the Biden's have
made their money during a lifetime in politics. And why Hunter Biden would
have actively sought business deals with countries with whom his father was
negotiating foreign policy as vice president at the time.
And those countries were not the U.K., France or Italy. They were billion-
dollar arrangements, reportedly, with Russia, Ukraine, and China. We have
known for some time that at least Hunter's Ukraine deals troubled the Obama
Then in a whole another side and layer to this story you've got Twitter and
Facebook blocking "The New York Post" stories they did actively again today
and these are ongoing investigative pieces and you can't find them on
Twitter or Facebook. So that's another element all of this.
But first to break it all down here now is the person who was at the center
of all of this, the Former New York City Mayor and Attorney to the
President Rudy Giuliani. Mayor Giuliani, good to have you with us tonight
and thanks for being here.
RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PERSONAL ATTORNEY: Good to be with you,
Martha. How are you?
MACCALLUM: I'm doing fine. Thank you.
MACCALLUM: I'm healthy. I'm glad you are not coughing like last time and
you had a negative, so that's good news.
GIULIANI: Oh, that created a heck of a thing.
MACCALLUM: Yes, sure it did. All right, so I want to get to the origins of
all this in a moment but last time we talked about Ukraine.
MACCALLUM: We showed the Ukraine emails and tonight I want to ask you some
questions about the China side of this story in particular.
MACCALLUM: And what the deal was, as you understand it, that Hunter Biden
struck there that involved the State Bank of China run by the Communist
government there and explain the players in this deal and we have a full
screen here that shows one of the emails from James Gilliar, so explain to
people what you think was going on here.
GIULIANI: We have two deals that I've analyzed in China and they are two
very big ones. One was the investment in the Hunter Biden, Chris Heinz, and
Bolger Private Equity Fund that was owned by the vice president's son, the
Secretary of State's stepson, and the nephew, believe it or not, of Bolger
and - is the name of it.
And the Chinese government over a period of time through the Bank of China
committed $1.5 billion and became a partner. So essentially while Joe Biden
is vice president was negotiating with China and I might say getting his
head kicked in, contemporaries reports will tell you that, even "The New
York Times" he was losing on every point to China.
His son, the Secretary of State's stepson, and the nephew to one of the
biggest organized criminals in America got a $1.5 billion commitment to
their totally useless private equity fund. At a time in which this - the
emails and the pictures and that will demonstrate that Hunter Biden was
seriously suffering from drug addiction.
There's no doubt that China had all the pictures that I now have of him as
a drug addict. He was continuously a drug addict from 2014 until as
recently as 2020. He got kicked out - remember he got kicked out of the
navy after only two months.
His father pulled all kinds of strings to get him in at 40. You usually get
in for some kind of specialty. They put him in public relations, hardly a
specialty. Within two months he couldn't stop taking crack cocaine. He
failed and his rebound was his father getting him the deal with Nicole
Zinoleesky who was one of the most crooked men in Ukraine. This China deal-
MACCALLUM: OK. Go ahead.
GIULIANI: This China deal happened when his father took him over on Air
Force 2. His father was going to try to negotiate with China to get them
out of the islands they were disputing with Japan. He failed to do that. In
fact they expanded their military presence there. But Joe came back with
nice, good words about China. He's the one who said China is not a threat,
China is not a competitor.
MACCALLUM: All right.
GIULIANI: He's the only man in the world who would say that. Was that
influenced by the fact that the son, who is a serious drug addicts, got
$1.5 billion in commitments from China? That's an extraordinary amount of
MACCALLUM: I want to put up a piece of email that you are talking about.
And just show everybody this email that this one was part of "The New York
Post" investigation that is all coming off of this laptop.
And it says you know at the moment, they have a provisional agreement that
the equity will be distributed and it says 20 will go to H and it goes
through different initials, I suppose. There is one that says H I assume
that you believe that means Hunter. At the bottom it says 10 will be held
by H for the big guy. Tell me what this means?
GIULIANI: You've got to guess who the big guy is? If you need any guessing
about who the big guy is all you have to do is take a look at the
arrangement made for the office of this business where the Chinese
Communist government was up partner.
When the offices opened, Hunter Biden sends a memo in the first two people
he puts down to have keys to the office are Joe Biden and Jill Biden. So
Joe Biden and James Biden were all going to have offices with the
government of China essentially. This business we're talking about now is a
MACCALLUM: Yes. Do you have evidence that this guy means Joe Biden? You
know just to lay it out quite clearly do you evidence that that is--
GIULIANI: The only evidence - the only evidence I have right now is here it
says big guy and here it says that he's the first person to get a key in
the office that this business is going to occupy. We've got to put those
two things together. But I haven't finished yet with the hard drive. There
are some extraordinary things on it and I don't know.
MACCALLUM: Let me ask you this--
GIULIANI: If I was in court I would put these two things together. There's
a certain amount of unbelievable, unbelievable expansion of reality that's
given to Biden. I mean, who would up about the big" be?
MACCALLUM: All right. Let me ask you one more thing because I thought this
is very interesting. I understand the point that you're trying to make.
This is a text message that I saw you talk about this morning, that you say
is from Hunter Biden to his daughter Naomi.
And on this text message it says I love all of you but I don't receive any
respect and that's fine I guess works for you, apparently. I hope you all
can do what I did and pay for everything for this entire family for 30
years. It's really hard. But don't worries, unlike pop I won't make you
give me half your salary.
Now this, obviously - I just want to point out that your main argument here
appears to be, not that there was a quid pro quo, that there was policy
impact from what he is doing, but that he was the moneymaker for the Biden
family and that is at the very least unethical in terms of the way the
money was being made, attaching himself to the his father the vice
president in order to get these deals and you're argument is that, that's
the only way--
GIULIANI: No, not quite correct Martha.
MACCALLUM: In what way?
GIULIANI: No, it isn't. My argument as this is a racketeering case that
went on for 30 years. I mentioned 30 years a year ago probably on your
show. I said for 30 years the Biden family has been selling Joe's office to
the highest bidder.
MACCALLUM: So let me ask you this, where did this text message come from?
This text message is not used in "The New York Post" investigation which is
based on the hard drive that you gave them.
Also, people who claim that have concerns about the origin of this hard
drive and whether or not it's some form of Russian disinformation, which I
want you to reply to claim that there is no metadata attached to it?
There's no address on this text message, so prove to everybody right now
that this text message is legit. Can you?
GIULIANI: Yes, I can. I mean, I can't right now I don't have the hard drive
with me but it comes right off the hard drive. "The New York Post" has
possession of it; they just elected not to publish it. Its right in the
hard drives those two messages. I don't know if you had the two messages
MACCALLUM: We do, we have it on the screen right now.
GIULIANI: His daughter's name. I mean, look, the hard drive will eventually
be out if it's not, put me in jail. I'm telling you it's on the hard drive.
That's where I took it from.
MACCALLUM: How do you know the hard drive definitely belongs --?
GIULIANI: You think a Russians gave it to me?
MACCALLUM: I am asking because there are all these questions that I know
you are aware of so I'm giving you a chance to--
GIULIANI: --Martha they have been feeding us this garbage for years. This
isn't from Russia! Look, this is a deal, every witness told me existed.
Hunter just wrote it out for us. This is the deal that is outlined in the
first chapter of the book "Secret Empire." This is the way that Chinese do
corruption. They don't pay the principal.
They paid the relatives so they don't have to file around him. This is what
Chinese Bank paid a billion dollars in fines for.
MACCALLUM: Look, there is no doubt, none of this looks good and none of
GIULIANI: Of course it doesn't look good!
MACCALLUM: --the way anybody should operate in relation to the Vice
President of the United States and a family member who is making money off
that position. I'm just merely asking to explain some of the origin so that
you can put to rest some of these things that are out there that are trying
to shoot down your evidence here.
MACCALLUM: And I was just asking if you can identify them and answer for
GIULIANI: I can. The answer is it's on the hard drive. The hard drive will
eventually be examined by anybody who wants to examine it. I wouldn't
invite - you want to send somebody from Fox to my office? They can look at
this. They can look at the hard drive. I will show it to them tomorrow.
GIULIANI: I actually have it memorized as to exactly where it is on the
hard drive. I have to tell you, I've only been able to go through a third
of the hard drive. And my people have only been able to go through a third
even I think "The Post" has probably only gone through 20 percent of it.
It's huge. And the reason I hate bringing up the fact that he's a drug
addict because I feel sorry for him as a drug addict. But there is
something really important about that. The first thing is it's a national
security risk. I mean, do you remember how the Democrats were all worried
that the Russians had all these bad tapes on Donald Trump?
MACCALLUM: I sure do and you saw that all over Twitter. Nobody blocked any
GIULIANI: And the Chinese have those tapes on Hunter Biden and Joe Biden's
MACCALLUM: All right.
GIULIANI: And the tapes are horrendous.
MACCALLUM: We want to continue to being into this - go ahead.
GIULIANI: They could squeeze Joe at anytime they want. They could squeeze
Joe with this anytime they want. The second transaction we are talking
about was actually, in my view, set up for the purpose of squeezing Joe
MACCALLUM: All right, let me as you one last question from those who are
challenging this and that's on Andre--
GIULIANI: Sure please.
MACCALLUM: He has now been determined by investigation of the U.S. Treasury
Department to be a Russian agent who is waging a covert influence campaign
to affect the U.S. election by releasing information about purported Biden
wrongdoing. He someone that you spent several months with he's a former
member of the Ukraine parliament. What do you say to that?
GIULIANI: Well, first of all, I didn't spend several months. I met with him
three times over three to four months. Second he gave me no relevant
information about Joe Biden. His information relates to $5.3 billion in
foreign aid that's missing in Ukraine, $3 billion of which is American,
which he alleges the Obama Administration covered up.
It's already led to the prosecution of two people for embezzling about $140
million who were closely associated - he actually worked for George Soros.
He gave me no information on Hunter Biden, Joe Biden--
MACCALLUM: So nothing connected to this at all?
GIULIANI: He doesn't know about that case, zero, and zero.
MACCALLUM: All right. Just wanted to ask you because that is some of the
reporting that is out there in reaction to this. We always go overtime
whenever we talk. I want you to come back so we can do this--
GIULIANI: They are going to throw every piece of dirt they can Martha.
MACCALLUM: Rudy Giuliani, thank you very much.
GIULIANI: Every piece of dirt they can but I can take it.
MACCALLUM: Yes, I know you can. Thank you very much, good to have you here
MACCALLUM: Good to see you. So with the hearings over now, President Trump
is confident today that his third Supreme Court pick will be confirmed and
Senate Judiciary Committee Lindsey Graham when "The Story" continues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE AMY CONEY BARRETT, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: It's not the law of Amy;
it's the law of the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: We have the votes; those are the words of the Senate Majority
Leader Mitch McConnell as the hearing for the Supreme Court Nominee Judge
Amy Coney Barrett come to a conclusion. Today, the Judiciary Committee
heard from witnesses and then they set a date for their vote which is
October 22nd, 1 week from today. Democrats did continue to lambaste the
process, calling it a sham.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Not only do you have your own precedent, not
only do you have the example of Abraham Lincoln, but you have the fact that
because of what this president has been saying, it undermines this process,
undermines the court, and that is why we should delay.
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): Senator Klobuchar and Senator Harris before her both
pointed out the fact that Abraham Lincoln did not make a nomination in
those 27 days. What both of them omitted was that the Senate wasn't here.
This was not the age of communing every weekend, jumping on a united
flight. "The Washington Post" conclusion was that Senator Harris' argument
"Wasn't exactly true."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Joining me now is Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lindsey
Graham. Chairman Graham, good to have you with us today. I'm sure it's been
a long week for you.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So thanks for joining us tonight. We appreciate it. I just want
to put up a moment between you and Senator Feinstein this morning hugging
it out on the way out the door as we take a look at that. Overall, she
commanded you on your handling of this across the board. How do you think
GRAHAM: I think it went very well. Judge Barrett proved to the country any
fair-minded person she is qualified to be on the court. As to Senator
Feinstein she is going to vote against the nominee. She has opposed the
process at every turn.
I respect her, she respects me. And the people criticizing her they are in
charge of the Democratic Party. In their world you can't even have mutual
respect, so it's mutual destruction. So I hope people understand that the
folks pushing the Democratic Party object to Senator Feinstein saying
something nice about me. God help us all if they get in control of the
MACCALLUM: You know there is occasionally a yearning for the cordiality
that used to exist in these forums and I think we saw a little bit of that
bubble up from Feinstein. But then there is a whole another side that seems
to want to dig in their heels and not go back there. I thought you said
something interesting, you said the qualification test to me seems to be
dead and buried with everybody but me. What did you mean by that?
GARHAM: Well, I voted for Stoudemire (ph) and Kagan understanding they had
a different judicial philosophy. Justice Scalia got 97 votes, I think.
Justice Ginsburg got like, 96. They are polar opposites in terms of
judicial philosophy. It used to be in the Senate that you looked at
qualifications, understanding elections matter, but why is it always
conservative's elite, Thomas, Kavanaugh.
So what I would say to my Democratic colleagues, I respect you, I want to
work with you but you try to destroy Judge Kavanaugh's life. I don't need
any lectures from Democrats on this Committee about fair.
So I would love to do it differently. When it was my turn to be where you
are at I voted for Stoudemire and Kagan and how do we get repaid? You tried
to destroy Judge Kavanaugh. Here is the good news there was no Kavanaugh-
like attacks on Judge Barrett. I think they've learned their lesson and I
hope this sets the tone for the future time will tell.
MACCALLUM: That's what I was going to ask you because you know if - as we
all remember we were at this stage when the Kavanaugh allegations began.
MACCALLUM: Now you talk about October 22nd that 7 long days when everyone
looks at this process and says it was handled well. Do you sense that there
is anything in the works to try to gum up this vote?
GRAHAM: I don't know but after the Kavanaugh experience I don't sleep well
at night. I sleep with one eye open. There are groups out there who are
attacking Senator Feinstein for just showing common courtesy to me. Only
God knows what they would do?
I can tell you this, when it comes to this election cycle, Democrats have
raised about $400 million since the passing of Justice Ginsburg to destroy
people like me. My opponent raise $57 million because I dare stood up for
Kavanaugh and I'm trying to help Trump.
I've got Amy's back and she
needs to have my back that there is a lot at stake here. So they are trying
to gin up Democrats to destroy this fine nominee in Judge Barrett. They do
so at their own peril. If Senator Schumer and this crowd do this again I
think it will blow up in their face even worse than Kavanaugh.
MACCALLUM: Yep. You know that's what I wonder. I mean, there's definitely a
political assessment to be made, whether or not it's worth it?
MACCALLUM: And there were indications that it was politically a mistake.
When you look at the polls in South Carolina and you just mentioned you
were in a tight race. I think your opponent has raised $20 million more
than the highest racing Senate candidate which was Beto O'Rourke before
So there's a ton of money going into this race to end your time in
Washington, but look at this, in South Carolina, 52 percent support Amy
Coney Barrett, 30 percent oppose and 17 percent apparently, I don't know,
doesn't know or hasn't decided after the course of this week. Do you think
this has a positive impact on your campaign overall? The latest numbers I
saw for you are up a 6.
GRAHAM: Oh, my God, does this have a positive impact for me, yes
absolutely. Thank you President Trump for nominating a qualified
conservative pro-life unashamedly religious woman who has the
qualifications and the disposition for the court, to all the young women of
the world wondering is it OK to be pro-life? If it is OK to embrace your
faith, the answer is yes.
This is a historic moment for the country to have somebody like Justice
Barrett to go on the court but when it comes to South Carolina, we want
conservative judges, we don't want liberal judges. Judge Barrett will play
very well in South Carolina and I think she's playing very well throughout
the country. She is unashamedly religious but she will not impose your
religion on you or me.
She is going to view the law through the lens of an originalist, which
should be comforting to everybody. She will not be a legislator in a robe.
She will apply the lot of the facts and we should all be pleased. But
finally, to all the young women, there's a place at the table for you.
MACCALLUM: I heard you say that a couple times through the course of these
proceedings and I think that it was heard across the country by a lot of
young women who may be sometimes feel like they are shut out of the
conversation and it's not OK to feel the way that they feel.
And of course everyone should have the freedom to say and think what they
feel and be able to have friendships on both sides of that equation. So
let's play this, just a quick moment from you today and I want to get your
thoughts on it before we say goodbye.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM: You all have a good chance of winning the White House. I don't know
where the polls are going to be?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Thank you for acknowledging that.
GRAHAM: Yes, I think it's true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So what you think of this race? 19 days to go, it sounds like
you like it could - you sound like it could go Biden's direction.
GRAHAM: Well, here is what I think. I think President Trump is going to win
because the people who are trying to destroy Dianne Feinstein's well lived
life because she gave me a hug are driving the Democratic Party to pat
court, add more justices beyond nine to make it liberal, to change the
rules of the Senate, to do away with Electoral College.
The most radical agenda in modern political history is being pushed. I
think that's why think President Trump is going to win. I know that's why
he's going to win in South Carolina. I know that's why I'm going to win. So
yes, is it close? Close but I like the way this race is trending. President
Trump is coming on at a time that matters. And President Trump you got to
hell of a first term and talk more about it.
MACCALLUM: Senator Lindsey Graham thank you very much sir. Good to see you
GRAHAM: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: 19 more days, that is how long undecided voters have to make
their choice for president. We are going to talk to three of them from
three battleground states after this.
MACCALLUM: Two of the big stories dominating the campaign trail this week
Hunter Biden's e-mail revelations, purported e-mail revelations that we
were just talking to the former mayor of New York about and also the big
hearings that dominated this week for Judge Amy Coney Barrett for the
Both of them unfolding just two weeks since the president confirmed his
COVID diagnosis which surprised a lot of people and made a lot of news.
Here now on how all of this can play out over the next 19 days. Three
undecided voters from crucial battleground states. We have Christopher
Formoso of Florida, a financial analyst -- analysis manager who voted for
Gary Johnson back in 2016. He is a registered Republican.
Caitlin Singleton, Democrat from Wisconsin, is a rental housing site
manager, mom of three, she voted for Hillary Clinton last time around. And
Andrew Rodney of Michigan, COO of a plastic manufacturing company. He voted
for Gary Johnson in 2016. And he is an independent.
Thank you so much for all of you for being here tonight. Caitlin, you spoke
with us several weeks back and so since the last time we spoke, a lot of
things have happened and one of the biggest stories as I said this week has
been hearings for Amy Coney Barrett. Did you watch them and did they have
any influence on how you are thinking now?
CAITLIN SINGLETON, UNDECIDED WISCONSIN VOTER: Yes, so I did watch them. I
taped them and watch them when my kids went to bed, all of the hearings. I
don't think they necessarily had an impact on how I will be voting. I'm
still undecided at this point. You know, I was hoping the debate would
clear that up for me. They did not. I'm crossing my fingers that the next
debate coming up will clear it up for me as time is definitely taking now.
I have mixed feelings about the hearing. I support the appointee, I think
she's incredibly skilled, I think that was very evident in the hearing, I
am also a Catholic and pro-life so I do -- those personal aspects resonate
I have mixed feelings about the process though, and the double standards
that I've kind of seen from what happened the last time around with the --
with Garland. So, I have mixed feelings about it. I do support the
appointee the SCOTUS appointee, though, and it does not have any impact on
my voting. Yes.
MACCALLUM: OK. Christopher, what is playing large in your mind as you look
at some of these big stories lately?
CHRISTOPHER FORMOSO, UNDECIDED FLORIDA VOTER: Well, with ACB, I think she's
a fantastic woman, she has more character than anyone probably in this
country. She adopted two kids from a third world country, gave them a great
life here in Haiti. My wife used to serve in Haiti and I've heard stories
of how rough it is there.
And the fact that she's -- just treated kind of ported back is expected.
But the packing of the court, that is absurd. One of the three major powers
of this country, and what's going to happen when a presidential -- a
Republican becomes president down the road? They are going to repack it?
They are going to have like 100 judges at one point to keep getting power,
MACCALLUM: It's a good point. Andrew, what about you, with the news that
you are hearing and the things that are the input for your decision? How is
that all playing out right now?
ANDREW RODNEY, UNDECIDED MICHIGAN VOTER: It's a lot of noise. You know,
it's just that they are just shoving everything at you now and attacking
everybody. But Amy Coney Barrett, I, again, high character. She doesn't
have a lot of legal experience but she's going to get appointed, so move
on. It would be great if the Senate could do, you know, more effective
business than just have this political theater.
So, and that's how a lot of this feels. The debates were certainly
disappointing. Trump just embarrassed himself, and Biden didn't really
bring anything new. So, I think and the Hunter Biden revelation is, you
know, is nothing new. This is the way it's been, influence peddling.
But, so, no real change in my perspective except probably more disenchanted
with Trump. But Biden has done nothing at all except make himself look --
you know, make Trump look worse. That's about it. So, it's a disappointing
election. We need to fix the political system that's causing this cancer to
MACCALLUM: So how do you think you'll vote if you had to vote today,
Andrew, work what would you do?
RODENY: I'm probably leaning to vote for a third-party candidate for the
libertarian party or writing somebody and, actually, and then I worry about
Democrats taking full control of the entire government. So, I might vote
for a Republican Senate campaign -- candidate, for the sake of avoiding
And our House candidates. I'm uncertain. You know, to be honest and a lot
of elections, I don't vote. If I don't know somebody, I don't know their
background or anything, I don't vote.
RODNEY: And I wish that more people who didn't really understand the
details wouldn't vote. It's like Amy Coney Barrett. You know, if you are
not a legal expert, you don't know the background of those things, to sit
there and express your opinion, it's good for people to know but let the
more important people in the position. So.
MACCALLUM: I thought it was a good education and a lot of that, just
listening to it over the course of this week. And she's a, you know, a
circuit court judge for three years so she does have quite a bit of
experience and also as a legal professor.
Caitlin, tell me about Wisconsin right now. How do you think, what's your
feel for which way Wisconsin might be leaning?
SINGLETON: You know, it's hard to tell. Where I'm at, in Middleton, there
are -- I don't see a single Trump sign. Maybe one or two. Everything is
Biden. One thing I'm noticing that's very different from the last year or
the last election, I should say, in 2016, is when I go through rural
Wisconsin, I'm seeing a lot of Biden signs on farms, and in 2016 that was
MACCALLUM: That's right.
SINGLETON: So, that is definitely a change, although you go to different
counties and it's all Trump. So, it's really hard to tell. It's hard to
MACCALLUM: Before, just real quickly, Christopher, just about 20 seconds,
what's your feel for Florida?
FORMOSO: I think Trump is going to win it. We're -- I think Cuban American
population, I'm a first-generation Cuban-American. We feel proud of this
country. The Democrats seem to hate this country. I think it's an
impressive country for us. We are all minorities and we made it to this
country, so I think it's going to be Trump in Florida.
MACCALLUM: Great to have all of you with us. Thank you for sharing your
viewpoints this evening and for being here. Thank you all.
RODNEY: Thank you for having us.
SINGLETON: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: Twenty days to go. All right. So, chairman Ron Johnson of the
committee now investigating these alleged Biden e-mails. He is coming up.
His committee also looked into this, so we'll see what he thinks now.
And next, Dr. Shelby Steele as cancel culture strikes his new documentary
exploring race relations in America. Glad to have him back on the show. He
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHELBY STEELE, FILMMAKER: Absolutely, race played a significant part of the
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened in Ferguson was more about America, the
very same America that would explode in 2020.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Writer and filmmaker Shelby Steele is focused on race in America
for decades. He has a bold voice that is not always welcome in the current
BLM dominant look at the root causes of the conditions of black lives in
our country today, so the subject of the new film is an event that sparked
enormous controversy over what happened and what did not happened in the
shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson.
As you look at this trailer, keep in mind that Amazon, which is owned by
Jeff Bezos which also owns the Washington Post, has declined to stream this
movie on their platforms, a move that the Wall Street Journal editorial
board is now decrying. Writing, quote, "by canceling important dissenting
voices like Steeles on such a vital subject, Amazon is inviting a political
backlash." Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened in Ferguson was more about America, the
very same America that would explode in 2020. Where every black was George
Floyd and every cop was Derek Chauvin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can do better next time by doing the right thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since the '60s whites have lived under the accusation
that they are racist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Ferguson really became a destination for successful
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were not part of white flight. No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some people want to be angry at someone. Michael Brown
had tried to buy cigarillos the night before with pot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He put his hands on the earth, but the officer still
approached with his weapons drawn and he fired seven more shots.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, CHIEF ANCHOR, ABC NEWS: Some witnesses have also
said that they actually saw you stand over him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not being correct.
STEPHANOPOULOS: What did you see in that face?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aggression, there was nothing. It was like hollow just
looking through me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What demons might have been at work within him and to
make the final fateful charge against Officer Wilson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Joining me now, the film's writer and narrator Dr. Shelby
Steele, a senior Hoover fellow on race relations. Good to have you with us
as always, Shelby. Thank you very much for coming back.
You received an e-mail --
STEELE: Thanks for having me.
MACCALLUM: -- that said that your title doesn't meet prime videos content
quality expectations, not eligible for publishing on the service and we
won't be accepting a resubmission of this title so don't try to come back
around again. What do you think about all this, sir?
STEELE: I think what they are saying really when it's all over with is they
are saying dare to look at blacks in America as something as human beings
rather than as victims. And we are invested as this huge massive
corporation in the political correctness of seeing blacks as victims.
You see them as more complex than that and that's intolerable. We are going
to, no matter what you do, we're going to insist that they remain in the
American, sort of cultural world. We are going to make sure that they
continue to be seen as victims who are old things.
I like to say Amazon, this is one of a classic example of white guilt
coming out, and I now can claim to be a victim of white guilt.
MACCALLUM: I want to play another piece --
STEELE: So, I can waive -- I can waive my flag and ask for redress too.
MACCALLUM: I want to play another piece of this that may have also, you
know, provoked to this action. Listen to this part of the documentary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEELE: Perhaps the most insidious feature of liberalism after the 1960s is
that it dismisses individual responsibility as an agent of black uplift.
Problems are always the fault of a systemic enemy, like racism.
Let's ask a daring question. One that a group like Black Lives Matter would
forbid. Is Michael Brown in any way responsible for his own death?
Liberalism invisibilizes (ph) all of black America. It leaps over our
actual problems to highlight racism as the source of all our ills.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: I mean, in 2020 those are very strong words. And in many
corners, they don't go down well. Kamala Harris had tweeted about the
murder of Michael Brown at one point and the Washington Post gave that four
Pinocchio's. You know, you had school children across America doing hands
up, don't shoot exercises and you are undercutting and shedding light on
that in a different way, sir.
STEELE: All of these incidents, Freddie Gray, Trayvon Martin, Michael
Brown, the fascination with them again is that -- here's the idea of blacks
being victimized by whites. That is an -- that is our avenues as a
minority. That's our avenue to entitlement, to power.
Our power in American life as blacks is in our victimization. We haven't
invented the computer, we didn't do a number of other things, we are,
though, victims of American evil. And that gives us a moral authority that
constitutes raw power. And we'll do anything to protect it, and we then use
that power to shakedown institutions like Amazon, who need are in premature
in order for their brand to seem to be innocent of racism, so it's a
symbiotic sort of problem that we -- that then all of America has to deal
MACCALLUM: Well, I think, you know, people should know that Reverend Al
Sharpton is in this documentary, the NAACP. There's a lot of different
viewpoints presented here and --
MACCALLUM: -- it is called what killed Michael Brown. Dr. Shelby Steele,
thank you very much for bringing it to us and we look forward to talking to
you again soon. Thank you, sir.
STEELE: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: Chairman Ron Johnson on the plan to investigate a brand-new
trove of alleged Hunter Biden documents and a new Washington Post story
about this just coming out tonight after this.
MACCALLUM: Minutes after our interview with President Trump's attorney Rudy
Giuliani about his involvement in these Hunter Biden e-mails, the
Washington Post has now reported tonight that the White House was warned
last year that Giuliani, quote, "was being used to feed Russian
misinformation to the president."
Senate Homeland Security Committee Chairman Ron Johnson has been very
deeply involved in this whole issue as well, and he joins me now. Senator,
thank you very much for being here tonight. Are you aware of those reports?
The report is that Robert O'Brien, the national security adviser went to
the president and said that he had information from our intelligence
services that Rudy Giuliani was possibly the target of being fed some of
this Russian information? Are you aware of those?
SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): I'm aware that Russia continues to try to
influence and interfere in our election, there's no doubt about that. I'm
also aware that Democrats created a false intelligence product falsely
accusing Chuck Grassley and I of accepting Russian disinformation which we
did not do from that same individual, Andrii Derkach. We didn't know who
the guy was, had not accepted any information. So, I also know there's a
fair amount of falsely allegations being thrown around this issue as well.
MACCALLUM: So, you know, this whole story and we didn't even get into this
part of it with Rudy Giuliani but this guy who owns a computer store who
claims that Hunter Biden dropped off his laptop there and he was concerned
about it, it was left there indefinitely so he then basically owned the
laptop under an agreement. And that laptop information was also sent to
your office, why didn't you bring this story out? Did you have concerns
about the nature of this information?
JOHNSON: Well, we were contacted by the whistleblower, normally I wouldn't
even be talking about this because we maintain the anonymity of
whistleblowers, but the day after we issued our reports we were contacted
by the whistleblower. We talked to the individual and you know, we started
our due diligence process of validating and verifying the information he
provided to us.
One of the steps we took is we reached out to the FBI, and it took them
over a week to get back to us and basically give us no response. Now, in
public reporting we know the FBI apparently obtained this computer through
a warrant or through a subpoena in December of 2019 and I think the FBI has
to come clean in terms of did they receive this, have they done forensics
on this computer, what did they know about it?
Have they tracked this town? Have they investigated this? Have they gone
and tried to verify some of these e-mails? In other words, were the
recipients or the senders -- or the senders, have they verified that these
are true e-mails, are these true photos, true videos?
The FBI had this in December of 2019 right in the midst of the whole
impeachment process, there might be information relevant to our
investigation, there might have been information relevant to the
impeachment. If the FBI just sat on this computer and did nothing with it,
they need to explain to us why, but they also need to explain to us what
they did with it.
This is important information for the American public to sift and sort
MACCALLUM: Yes, absolutely. I mean, absolutely, it is. And I think people
need to know whether or not this is a, you know, whether they verified, did
the FBI verified, whether or not this laptop ever actually belongs to
Hunter Biden. I mean, that's a very basic thing that I would imagine they
would be able to figure out, so we need to go through this every step of
the way and determine whether or not this information is verifiable.
Very quick thought, I got to go in about 20 seconds, Senator.
JOHNSON No, they do. And this isn't a normal criminal investigation where
if they investigate somebody and they find nothing they completely -- they
completely keep that confidential. This is wrongdoing in the political
realm and the American public really deserve to know the truth.
MACCALLUM: We need to know one way or the other. Absolutely. Senator, thank
you very much, sir, you're so great tonight. Senator Ron Johnson.
JOHNSON: Have a good night.
MACCALLUM: More of The Story right after this.
MACCALLUM: That is The Story of this Thursday night, October 15th, 2020.
But as always, The Story continues so we will be back here with you
tomorrow at seven o'clock. Have a great night, everybody. Tucker is up
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